Posted by Lynn on January 07, 1997 at 09:45:15:
In Reply to: Re: Christian values and morals? posted by David on January 07, 1997 at 07:13:24:
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: : : : BINGO! We have a BINGO! Stephen, you have hit the nail on the head. I have had many discussions about this and that is exactly what I have been told - every time - by christians. They just can't believe that morality can come from anywhere else.
: : : It's a shame that so many of them believe this.
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: : I have a question. Who defines what is right and what is wrong? Let's throw out everything we've got....the Bible and other various religious teachings, all of our civil laws ( which are often based on the ten commandments)...and start fresh. No law has been written, therefore there is no fear of punishment. No one has yet decided right or wrong, so there is no fear of retribution or hatred. Wouldn't each indivual develop their own ideas of right and wrong according to his own point of view. If so, who decides which ideas are the right ones to base the society on? Is it the majority in a vote. What if the majority felt that pedophelia is o.k.?
: : I submit that there are laws at work in the universe pertaining to right behavior. Just as the law of gravity assures that an apple will fall to the ground, the law of God assures that we recieve back more than we give, and when we are selfish everything we grasp at slips through our fingers. Some call it karma. I call it reaping what you sow. Have you never found this to be true in your own personal experience? I believe it works for everyone reguardless of their beliefs, or non-belief, therefore, through trial and error (or reward and correction) we gain a rough idea of right and wrong, reguardless of whether we have knowledge of God's existence or not.
: : When I came to know Jesus and studied his teachings, and the more I endeavored to build on that relationship, the more sensitive I became to good and evil. I began to see that it was not enough to hold in an angry thought or hateful feeling, although that's a start. I began to understand that only love can heal those negative thoughts and feelings at their root. When someone hurts me, I pray for them. When someone despises me, I try to do something nice for them. I may not change what someone else is feeling, but it gives me tranquility
: : Having said all that, let me reiterate that I'm no angel. I fall into temptation in many ways. I lose my temper sometimes. I feel sorry for myself and get depressed. I start thinking life is unfair and take it out on my family. I know these things are wrong and state without hesitation that God's way is the right way, even though I am unable to live up to his standards. He forgives me for my weakness, but there are definitely earthly consequences for this bad behavior. God knows we are weak and bears with our iniquity when he knows we love Him and are doing our best. The problem comes in when people advocate what is wrong and practice it. Whoever said "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" didn't know his Bible very well.
: Current society has thrown out a lot of what bible states (witness the bible's stance on homosexuality and women's rights). If the majority of people thought that paedophilia was OK and had always done so then it would be OK and would not be illegal (repugnant though that may sound). Just look at some primitive tribal societies where paedophilia is acceptable. It may be abhorrent to western civilization but people in those societies consider it normal. It is our own set of value judgements, brought about by our upbringing and the society we live.
: As far as having to have a God to have morals, that is just nonsense. One of the largest branches of philosophy is ethics and many great and famous men come up with ideas for ethical societies that do not depend on God. One I particulary like is by a guy named Rawls. His basic premise for forming a society is that it should be designed as if you don't know what part you are going to play in that society, whether you are going to be male/female, black/white, old/young etc. Using rational thought, rather than the bible, will come up with a better society IMHO every time.
I don't feel you were listening to what I said.